I work at a radiator and A/C shop. R-134a and R-1234yf should not be mixed. However, because mineral oil and PAG oil are not to be mixed, another A/C compressor oil was needed to bridge the gap. These are cars with poor A/C reputations, which is precisely why I continue to use R12 in them. Only polyglycol type synthetic oils (PG or PAG) may not be mixed with the other lubricant types. In addition, there was the lubricant issue. Most Ester oils have a viscosity closer to ISO 100. But many European cars, such as the vintage BMWs I love, had A/C systems that never functioned all that well even when they were new and charged up with R12. I went to an A/C class last week and the guy there recomended Ester oils over Pag oils. We've had reports that ESTER oil used in GM compressors that specify ISO 135 may experience unusual knocking sounds. First, it is a pernicious ozone-destroying agent, so if you are going to use it in a car, you are morally required to do everything under the sun to thoroughly leak-test the system before charging it with R12. When looking at PAG oil you will notice various numbers such as … Using the wrong oil may allow current to short circuit back through the A/C compressor, creating a shock hazard. According to Mobil Oil, it should be fine to mix oils. It’s often said that R12 is no longer available. You can get it and use it. Because this recipe was quite expensive, a backlash developed which gave companies an opportunity to sell “conversion kits” consisting of nothing but the charging port adapters and a small bottle of oil that was somehow magically supposed to make your mineral oil R134a-compatible. Ester-Based Oils as Replacements for Transformer Mineral Oil PSU-ECE-PGE-009 2 Ester-based Dielectric Oils Ester oils are dielectric coolants designed for use in distribution and power class trans-formers. PAG and ester can be mixed, so can mineral and ester. In many ways esters are very similar to the more commonly known and used synthetic hydrocarbons or PAOs. “No one here will work on it,” he said. PAG and mineral can cause issues though, which is why they recommend ester for R134a conversions. Using PAG oil in hybrids can be hazardous to the vehicle, but it can also endanger the technician since there is an electrocution risk associated with using the wrong oil. JavaScript is disabled. A/C professionals derisively called these “death kits” because they had a reputation for causing the compressor to seize a few months later. Providing high lubricity and chemical stability with system components, POE also offers good miscibility (the ability to mix with refrigerants and HFCS). I was the grunt guy/parts swapper. First things first. Heat an oil mixture or two oils you want to test for compatibility and examine for clarity. Now, in the case of big American cars, with their massively overbuilt A/C systems and huge condensers, R134a conversion often worked fine. In fact, R12 was used for many years as a propellant in a variety of aerosol products and sprayed directly into the air, and it is closely related to the halon used in fire extinguishers. I doubt if you will find a general consensus on this question in the industry, and if you find it on this board, it will not be a very informed one. Because R134a is an HFC, not a CFC (stay with me for a minute), it does not have the ozone-destroying properties of R12. ... - Avoid mixing PAG with universal oils. Unfortunately, the widespread use of R12 appeared to be significantly degrading the Earth’s ozone layer, potentially causing a worldwide health crisis. Unfortunately, taking the longer view of things, even if you do leak-test a car thoroughly and properly all A/C systems leak eventually, so any can of R12 you put into a car will likely wind up in the atmosphere, an eventuality that I am less and less comfortable with. To take one of these and convert it to R134a was usually a recipe for disappointment. If you’re resurrecting the A/C in a vintage car, the vast majority of the time the refrigerant has long since leaked out, but if your car has refrigerant in it, and you need to open up the A/C system to work on it, spend a little money and take the car to an A/C shop. For this reason, when a car is being sold these days, R12 is often seen as a liability, a looming conversion expense, even if the system is functional and cold. Because of this, in the early 1930s, a new refrigerant based on a chlorofluorocarbon (CFC), specifically dichlorodifluoromethane, was developed. If the system was properly converted (complete flush to remove traces of the old mineral oil, new accumulator/drier) you shouldn't have to worry about using PAG. But once you’re on that path, you can improve the system with a new compressor and parallel-flow condenser which, in most cases, will allow you to get good results with R134a. The three major kinds of refrigerant oil: Mineral oil for R12 systems (left), PAG oil for R134a systems (center), and ester oil for either Rob Siegel. They can react together and form gum gels in the casings. Hydrolysis – decomposition of a compound by reaction with water. The compressor should then be filled with R134a-specific oil (usually PAG oil) and the system evacuated and recharged. Mixing of Polyol Ester and Mineral Oil. Drain the mineral oil out, replace it with the new oil, charge the system with refrigerant and run the system for at least 1 hour. Anyone selling R12 is required to verify that the buyer has an EPA Section 609 certification to work with mobile vehicle air conditioning (MVAC) systems. The issue is that you need to reach the point where the system is functional and leak-free. R-1234yf is very corrosive. R-1234yf requires a compatible oil for effective use. With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. Of course, the receiver/drier needs to be replaced, as it does any time an A/C system is opened. In contrast, the most likely reason you’d consider recharging with an “alternative refrigerant” is because the refrigerant leaked out of your car and you’re trying to avoid doing a full-on A/C rejuvenation which includes finding the leak and properly changing refrigerants. Even if you’re OK with that, if the system needs work, any refrigerant in it will need to be recovered. For example, while R12 itself is similar to the halon used in fire extinguishers, when R12 is mixed with mineral oil—the most commonly-used lubricant oil in R12 systems—and aerosolized and burned, it creates phosgene gas, which was used as a chemical agent in WWI. - Auto AC … Ester oil is compatible with all pag oils..... Red, yellow and blue are the only colours that can not be mixed using any other colours. Synthetic oil is a lubricant consisting of chemical compounds that are artificially made. In addition to the low boiling point, there are two other de facto requirements for refrigerant: It shouldn’t be poisonous, and it shouldn’t be flammable. Ester oil is often called “retrofit oil” because it mixes with both R-12 and R-134a. You can then add ester oil that’ll work with either R12 or R134a. ester works for both r12 and r134 WHY SHOULD YOU BUY THE PREMIUM PAG? Note that there is another kind of oil called Polyol Ester Oil (POE). You must log in or register to reply here. Allow the mixture to sit at room temperature for several hours. To be absolutely clear, these refrigerants are not EPA-approved and shouldn’t be used. Ester oil can NOT be mixed with any other oils as it will turn the refrigerant acidic. This is an example of an oil test kit. Its popularity coincided with the emergence of polyalkylene glycol (PAG) oil, which mixed well with the new refrigerant. But that is a generalization, and there are lots of nuances. So when someone says, “You can’t get R12 anymore,” or “It’s illegal to use R12,” those things simply aren’t true. 4, three new EPA-approved “climate-friendly alternatives.”. The A/C guy is gonna be out for a while and I was thrown into the A/C guy position. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. POE has good miscibility with mineral oils, whereas PAG oils have poor miscibility. The A/C guy is gonna be out for a while and I was thrown into the A/C guy position. Never use PAG or ester oil with R-12. This week, we discuss the thing that’s actually boiling and cooling—the refrigerant itself. You can order a personally inscribed copy here. The question instead is: Why is the system dead? Servicing: When payment of any kind is involved (including non-monetary), any person working on an MVAC system must be certified under section 609 of the Clean Air Act (CAA) and they must use approved refrigerant handling equipment. As I’ve said, R12 is a nasty ozone-destroying chemical and should never be released to the environment under any circumstances, so in addition to being illegal to vent it, you have a moral obligation not to vent it. Note that R134a is also sometimes called “Freon,” even labeled as such on the can, so it’s best to be clear and use the names R12 and R134a. He said that adding Ester oil to a system with Pag oil is a good thing. 5, Chip Foose reinvents the 1966 Ford Bronco with street-savvy style – Ep. ester oil. Published 05/19/2014 10:05 AM | Updated 05/19/2014 10:05 AM. For all of these reasons, the issues of conversion and performance need to be cleanly separated. What do ya'll think? Over time, a credible middle ground emerged. The issue is whether you should. The problem was that there was not agreement on exactly what was required for the conversion. Some compressor manufacturer’s or OEM’s suggest PAG type oil for R134a. way, refined crude petroleum oil has traditionally been used to produce mineral oil, but now some crude oil can be very highly refined and then used to create new formulas. And that brings us to…, I continue to use R12 in two of my cars—my 1972 BMW 2002tii and 1973 Bavaria. R134a reacts with water to form hydrofluoric acid which damages the internal A/C components. The Internet is a large and often-strange place, and if you want to search for sites that claim that R12 isn’t harmful to the ozone layer, and that the whole thing was a conspiracy by DuPont because its patent on R12 was about to expire, you’ll find them. POE oils is also more hydrolytic stable than PAG oils. A summary of most common refrigerants and their oil compatibility is detailed below. Ester was used in the aftermarket because it's compatible with R-12 and retrofits are more likely to happen in an the aftermarket. Stay on the right side of the law, the environment, and your conscience, and don’t vent refrigerant. Refrigerant: Must be EPA-approved and cannot be intentionally released (vented) into the environment. For R-134a systems use PAG or ester oil, never mineral oil. Any old black o-rings should be replaced with R134a-compliant green o-rings. ester oil. R134a is not an ozone-destroying agent, but it is a greenhouse gas, and is illegal to vent as well. With that said, I’ll agree that the flammability issue may not be as black-and-white as it appears. The problem is that some inexpensive available refrigerants—ammonia and propane, for example—are poisonous and/or flammable. The above notwithstanding, always use mineral oil (not PAG or ester oil) to lubricate the O-rings when installing them on AC fittings, regardless of the refrigerant type being used. Because the two oils were different, R134a certainly wasn’t a “drop-in” replacement for R12. if there are any traces of mineral oil in the system, the ester will mix with it, the pag won't. R12 and R134a are not the only game in town. However, the operating pressures are reportedly four times those of other refrigerants, so retrofit appears out of the question. He passed. What do ya'll think? As you probably know, matter can exist in three states—solid, liquid, and gas. If the mixture is cloudy, the oils are not compatible. I can tell you that R12 is some seriously great refrigerant; it gets both of these cars meat-locker cold almost from the instant the A/C is turned on. In refrigeration compression, PAG and polyol ester-type lubricants are used almost exclusively with the current generation of environmentally friendly HFC refrigerants such as R-134a and R-152a. There is no mixing between the oil used and ammonia; the oil drawn through the circuit must therefore be reintegrated. The advantage of ester oil is that it works with both R12 as well as R134a, so you can fill the system with it and then use either refrigerant. And it was safe—neither poisonous to breathe, nor flammable. Like PAG oil, Ester oil is a … Usually this is Pag ISO #46,#100 and #150. I prefer Ester oil over PAG oil for these reasons: better refrigerant compatibility, does not eat seals, does not absorb moisture and is non electrically conducive. Automotive HVAC preferred PAG oils over ester oils - it's more "mobile" in R-134a compared to ester and has a lower hydrolysis risk than ester despite being hygroscopic. PAG Oil. We’re most familiar with water, which we see as ice when it’s cold, liquid when it’s at room temperature, and steam when we boil it. But some types of PAG do not mix well with the old residual R12 mineral oil left in the system components whereas “ester” does mix very well. Because of R1234yf’s mild flammability, BMW and Mercedes are now adopting R744. PAG oil, or Polyalkylene Glycol, is a fully synthetic hygroscopic oil specifically designed for automotive air conditioner compressors. I was recently selling a beautiful 1987 BMW 325is with cold R12-based A/C. Then there are three new EPA-approved “climate-friendly alternatives.” There is R1234yf, which is already being used on new cars but is classified as “mildly flammable.” At $70 per pound, no one is using it in retrofit applications. In addition, there is a $10,000 “rat-out” fee your neighbor can collect if you’re venting refrigerant and he tattles on you. Lastly, there are the flammable organic refrigerants (propane and its blends). However, it does not lubricate as well as PAG oil under ideal conditions. The exception is R12 that only uses MO or Alkyl Benzene Mineral Oil (ABMO) blend. We always use what ever oil the compressor manufacturrer recomends. PAG oil and moisture together are not a good combination as when they mix, it forms an acid, causing damage or failure to system related components. Because A/C compressors have moving parts, they require oil. They may be natural or synthetic in origin, deriving from commodity seed oils or inorganic feedstocks. That’s not true either. You can spend interesting evenings going down the rabbit hole online and reading posts from folks who vigorously defend flammable refrigerants and say, “You do know that your car carries 20 gallons of flammable gasoline, don’t you?” Yes, but gasoline usually isn’t routed through the passenger compartment, and there’s a zero-tolerance policy toward gasoline leakage. Yes, there’s a certain irony in the fact that we’ve gone full-circle from the invasive “you’ll need to replace almost everything including the compressor and hoses in order to properly convert R12 to R134a” to “you don’t need to replace all that much; just flush it, new oil, new drier and o-rings,” and back to “you’ll need to replace almost everything including the compressor, hoses, and the condenser.” But this change has occurred both because the cars are that much older than they were when the R12 to R134a change occurred in the mid-1990s, and there is now a better understanding of the need to take advantage of updated compressors and condensers in order to get the A/C systems to blow adequately cold with R134a. The degree of hydrolysis is driven by the amount of water present. Bottom line, R134a simply doesn’t cool as well as R12. But the problem with R12 is twofold. So, along with R134a came a new oil: Polyalkylene Glycol—or PAG oil. Thus you see how R134a conversion was often applied to systems that were not working correctly, if they were working at all. We’ve been talking about air conditioning for a couple of weeks now, so if you’re still feeling the heat then it’s time to wrap up the series so you can get out to your garage and put what you’ve learned to good use. In this case, PAG 150 is generally accepted by most technicians. Pro and con to both, but I believe there is not a single manufacturer of automotive compressors that recommends Ester. Esther oils are also the preferred ones for R12 to 134 conversions because they will tolerate mineral oil remaining from when the system was R12. It may not display this or other websites correctly. We always use what ever oil the compressor manufacturrer recomends. To really be informed, look for places where the pros hang out, like. Usually this is Pag ISO #46,#100 and #150. Only clean, properly specified lubricants are able to protect the system. So the oil must be compatible with the refrigerant. If You are replacing mineral oil with POE or PAG oil (see below) you must have less than 5% of the mineral oil left in the system to avoid sludge. It is the process in which an organic acid and alcohol are combined to form POE oil and water. eBay requires that anyone posting an auction for R12 check that the buyer has that certification, but eBay has no way to enforce it. Small NOS cans of R12 are widely available on eBay and Craigslist for about $30 apiece. If the target environment is only moderately hot, and your use of the car is light, R134a will probably be fine. Can I mix Polyol Ester (POE) and Mineral Oil (MO) together? There’s a lot of misinformation surrounding R12. For hybrid-electric vehicles that use electrically driven compressors, polyol ester (POE) oil is not just recommended, its use is mandatory in many cases. As long as the compressor was working well, it could be drained, filled with R134a-compatible oil, and reused. PAG (ISO) 100 - Medium; PAG (ISO) 150 - Thick; GM sometimes recommends oil which is close to ISO 135. Fans unite to name a Nürburgring corner after Sabine Schmitz, 6 essential hand tools for every DIY toolbox, Chip Foose reimagines the iconic Jaguar E-type – Ep. Since you can’t vent any refrigerant without breaking the law, and since you’ll be hard-pressed to find a shop that will recover anything other than R134a, you’ll have painted yourself into a corner. (To be clear, both cars also have a new rotary-style compressor and a big parallel-flow condenser and fan.). Initially, an invasive recipe was proposed: the system should be flushed to remove any traces of the old R12-specific mineral oil, the compressor and expansion valve should be replaced with R134a-specific versions to perform correctly, and the old hoses should be replaced with 134a-specific barrier hoses to forestall leakage. Certainly no one selling cans of R12 on Craigslist is asking for your EPA 609 card. Whats the general conscensus on these 2 types of oils? Polyalkylene glycol, or PAG, a fully synthetic hygroscopic oil made for automotive compressor components. It’s often said that buying or selling R12 is illegal. Rob Siegel has been writing the column The Hack Mechanic™ for BMW CCA Roundel magazine for 30 years. This is why it is crucially important that R134a systems be properly evacuated (pumped down to boil off any moisture) and kept sealed. Wrenchin’ Wednesday: DIY boost leak detector! Note also that, unlike mineral oil, both PAG oil and ester oil are hygroscopic—that is, they absorb water. Furthermore, they can sometimes be incompatible and immiscible with other polyglycols. EPA is authorized to assess fines of up to $37,500 per day for any violation of these regulations.”. The following bullets are verbatim from EPA’s website: There is an additional requirement that the car’s A/C have charging fittings that are unique to the refrigerant being used, but it’s the venting part that’s of the most interest, as it’s the area where you can get fined. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was tetrafluoroethane, a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) branded as R134a. On a long-dormant system, the odds are very high that it’s dead because it has no refrigerant in it, which means it has leaked out… which means there’s a leak that must be located and fixed. Hydrolysis mixing pag and ester oil decomposition of a compound by reaction with water was required the. 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